Guantanamo has to be shut down because it is a cancer in our relations with the world. It is much more than that, but because it exists, it is a constant reminder to the world of the new image that the United States has acquired since 9/11.
One may protest that torture does not take place there, prisoners are being released, and that terrorists are often tried in normal courts. This does not matter. When the French stormed the Bastille on July 14, 1789, they did not care that it no longer served the purpose of torturing the King's enemies by superceding the law and only had six prisoners in it. They only saw it as a symbol; a constant reminder of despotism. This reminder brought down Louis XVI and if we continue to disregard our standing in the world, we could find ourselves bereft of traditional allies.
7 comments:
Tim- your posts are always so very intellectual.
How about a silly, fun post! Like something you do for fun or a picture of you...
I somewhat agree-but if we get rid of it, then where will we torture all of the terrorist?!!
Tim, I concede your point that Guantanamo, in the eyes of the world, is not becoming of enlightened individuals or of those who love freedom. However, Sean Hannity and Glen Beck told me that I need to support it. So, I must oblige.
I welcome the divestment of a few "allies" provided that there actually are terrorists being held there.
You could argue that the very essence of the problem lies in the fact that we cannot definitively say if there are or are not terrorists in Guantanamo Bay, and as you mentioned, we cannot ascertain if they are undergoing undue treatment.
But I must say that I find your comparison of the Bastille to be a stretch. I know you were drawing a loose comparison to the power of symbolism, but I for one am inspired by the symbol of Guantanamo. It says to me and my allies that if you are caught in a terrorist training camp, you just might have your butt handed to you in a back room somewhere by a US CIA agent. Would I storm Guantanamo one day given the chance? Obviously not. But if you should have the opportunity, just whom would be in your midst during the symbolic tear-down? Indignant former terrorists? Liberal Marxists? Frenchmen?
I think the real world is a gray and oftentimes harsh place where causality begets measures that some might call desperate and others might call necessity.
As for the world perception of Guantanamo, I am a bit surprised (considering your religious heritage) that you would put stock in the opinions of the majority anyway. This is especially more poignant considering the fact that so much of modern Europe where you are drawing your comparison (and where I suspect your thinking is being shaped) has become somewhat of a bitter homogenization of tired socialist ideas.
I like your blog and I hope my disagreement with you in this instance is not seen as harsh. This is just one working-man's opinion as he tries to keep his family safe and hopefully free from terrorists foreign and domestic.
Trent and Timothy: some thoughts: Hmmm…
A very intelligent dialogue and some very good points.
I can only speak to a few...
First, one need only visit these European states that have become "bitter homogenizations of socialist ideals" to see that they are actually on to something... ummm...hello? Europe has more or less successfully (this present financial crisis presents a formidable wrench for the works) built a union with a very transparent government from and answering to those governed; A government based upon ideals of human dignity and freedom, financial and economic cooperation and the mutual pursuit of peace and prosperity. Sounds an awful lot like a land I once heard of and the ideals upon which it was founded. Was that a land I only heard of in a lullaby….? (Most of these ideals grow out of the Enlightenment—a largely European movement—“we the people” of the US were simply the first to have the balls enough and need enough to found a new nation on these ideals)
Now, I don’t in anyway mean to imply that the EU and its governments are not without problems of corruption—not in anyway. They by and large struggle with many evils. For example, their growing diversity presents a major problem and they stumble with it in a way that the US hasn’t (to be sure we struggle and have struggled something horrible—but then again we ARE diversity) Europe IS the birthplace of homogenization by the means of a national identity—and the birthplace of western Imperialism (the banner of which we have taken—my, we learned well, haven’t we?)
BUT look at what the EU is—it is an actual attempt to put the negative aspects of nationalism behind them or at least subjugate them before the greater ideals I mentioned above!
The whole problem with Guantanamo is that it is a horrible, just horrible and terrifying betrayal of these American ideals.... One only need to visit a nation like Russia to see how desperate and senseless a country can become when there is no government accountability to the people or to the ideals upon which it is predicated.
That is what we loose with Guantanamo and the institutionalization of these ideals.
What Europe has been able to achieve in providing relative comfort, stability and wealth for the majority of its population comes because the people and the government are more synonymous and a more trusting and honored contract between the government and the citizen has been created between over the past 50-60 years.
This is something which has never existed in Russia-- and something that I fear we are losing quickly in the US. We lose it as “we the people” give away our stake in government, in literally BEING the government and upholding the ideals upon which it is predicated because we fear something we don’t understand. We fear something that our government tells us is worthy of our fear. And this fear leads us to give up our demand for transparency and for government accountability to us and to the ideals of the American nation because we begin to believe that either a) the government knows best and/or b) there is nothing to be done (….shucks, it is the government, its just too powerful and corrupt to fight or challenge). Both of these reasonings come from a growing acknowledgment that "we the people" really are NOT the government.
The farther we drift from this ideal (that there is to be an honored and trusted contract between people and their government--that in fact we ARE the government) the more we loose this belief and demand that it be honored, the more the government will do whatever it pleases without regard to the people or to the ideals upon which it is founded.
Guantanamo is a HUGE symbol of how far we have drifted from this ideal.... Europe, I fear, has gained more moral ground on which to stand in the decades following the last great War. Maybe they are in fact homogenized socialist ideals, but they are ideals to which they hold.... and the people of these nations benefit from a government that answers to the people.... God bless the United States that we can turn this tide and preserve these ideals upon which we are were founded.
Sean Hannity can kiss my trash.
Post a Comment